This Is What Works ----- Hair Testing

Discussion in 'Blood, Hair & Saliva Testing' started by Truth=Freedom, Mar 26, 2006.

  1. Truth=Freedom

    Truth=Freedom New Member

    I've been doing a lot of research over the past week, and reading all of your posts and comments as well. I've also posted some detailed descriptions of my research on two of these threads.....

    I've tried to analyze the MaCuj0 method, and other methods (Aloe Rid Clarifying Treatment), etc.

    I have found only ONE scietific abstract that clearly says of a treatment that likely reduces THC Metabolites in hair but as much as 30%!!!! And that is Perm and/or Bleach!

    IN THE END, here is what i have found out - What you have to do in order to HELP beat the hair test is use a product that can get through the outer armor of your hair's first layer, the cuticle, and then break down the very tight "disulfide" bonds of the inner layer, the cortex

    The CORTEX is where the THC metabolites (and hair pigments) are trapped.

    FORTUNATELY FOR US, their is a group COMMERCIALLY PRODUCED chemicals that are MADE TO DO EXACTLY THAT!!!! These are perm solutions (Ammonium Thioglycolate), and relaxers (Lye, or Sodium Hydroxide).

    ALL THE OTHER STUFF - including MaCuj0 method, is questionable and not really necessary, when these cheap and reliable products are available. These products have been created, designed and tested for EXACTLY the purpose we are trying to acheive!!!!!

    Go to the web site and look at the sections called "Hair Test", "Hair Upclose", and "The TR Process", and ALL IS EXPLAINED clearly, scientifically, and in a way anyone can understand.

    I will say here that because of the structure and nature of hair, African Americans and Asians should use hair RELAXERS rather than PERMS - those of you who do treat your hair likely already know that - but i'm a white guy with a crew-cut and don't even use gel, so what do i know?

    After a week of research, learning, and making my own "ideas" up, this one website explained it ALL - good luck to everyone!
  2. Truth=Freedom

    Truth=Freedom New Member

    i should say should HELP - not the SOLUTION

    After reading a reply to a private message i had sent, i realized that i've worded this Thread too strongly.

    while i completely support everything i've said here, and from what i consider good sources for study, i also should not dismiss methods that others have used just because i'm not sure if/how they work!!!!!

    SO i advise to USE this perhaps and ALSO use whatever you personally think should work.

    I have used Aloe Rid Clarifying Treatment. Then i learned about the perm, and used that, using the Aloe Rid before applying the perm neutralizer.

    thanks for reading - good luck to everyone!
  3. teufelfisch

    teufelfisch Seasoned Activist

    A few questions for you

    There are plenty of websites and biochemistry textbooks that explain the structure of hair. Many have excellent pictures and are very easy to understand. The website you linked has few graphics and doesn't explain hair structure very well. It doesn't even mention THC metabolites or drug testing, or how perms or similar treatments can break down the analytes.

    So why did you pick this website?

    Is this your personal website?

    Can you explian how breaking the disulfide bonds removes or reduces THC metabolites?

    I need some answers, otherwise this is spam. I am removing the direct link from your original post, but will refrain from closing the thread at the moment.
  4. Truth=Freedom

    Truth=Freedom New Member

    wow i'm surprised at your reply

    WOW - i am surprised and dissapointed by your reply -

    First of all, not only does this web-site provide a detailed and excellent desription of the structure of hair, and of the mechanism for breaking the disulfide bonds and why this is useful - but it definitely has a very clear, in color picture of hair structure, under the "sub-page" that i listed - it even begins with "let's talk science", if it even DOES have a product line listed, and i'm not saying it doesn't, i actually did not look for or even notice it, and certainly did not endorse any brand of home perm on my response.

    In fact, while editing this post, i've just reviewed the site - there is NOT ANY product or for-sale service i can find on this site. I can't even determine the purpose, other than to inform about the various methods of "TR" hair straightenting

    I only recommended it in particular, because i honestly feel it provides the most complete and easy-to-follow description of hair structure and method for opening the cortex i've seen. Most of us do not have textbooks on hair structure, and i also see that many people do not have a background in chemistry or biology to really "get into" these complicated books or web-sites
    (Strangely enough, another well-posted person i private messaged made the same dismissive comment of this web-site, and implied that they were trying to sell a product. HOW closely did either of you look at the info posted there???)

    Seondly, not only is this NOT "my website", but if you've bothered to look at my other recent posts on other threads/stickys, and the private message i sent to you, i'd hoped anyone can clearly see that my sole purpose has been to give some scientific explanations to what methods may work best. And strangely to me, considering what you've implied about my post, i haven't seen you scientifically try to explain the mechanics of any of the methods you've described, and though I did mention in a posting that i found PG to be a solvent used in cosmetics and food, in fact the shampoo-ingredient sites only mention it as a moisturizing component, not a solvent. I recall you posted that PG was the reason for some shampoos working, without anything to back it up? (am i wrong here, i'll apologize if i am) (though i do use aloe rid hair clarifying treatment myself, can't hurt, and is recommended by NORML).

    Third, i have even gone so far as to try to objectively analyze the mechanics of the infamous MaCuj0 method, also with research not conjecture (actually some conjecture, which i later recanted on a different post), but i also have an experimental process lined up (VERY simple home experiment) to see if the MaCuj0 method can break the disulfide bonds.

    Briefly, i've researched that MaCujo, by mixing Clean and Clear (Salycic acid), with Vinegar (acetic acid), is creating acetylsalicylic acid (the industrial method used for making aspirin). This is done industrially by using Sulfuric Acid as a buffer/catalyst to balance the two reactive ingredients. I've then conjectured that the MaCujo method, in doing this in the presence of your hair, is able to pull the sulfur molecules away from the disulfide bonds, which is similar in function to the perm, and then the Tide is able to remove the offending THC metabolites. I will test this in a jar at home, by mixing the two without hair, and in a separate jar with hair. I will then drop a penny into each jar. If in time (the normal time people do this on their heads), the penny in (only) the jar with hair turns green-blue, it is evidence (as that is the formation of copper sulfate), that sulfuric acid is formed, helping to validate my theory. It also would help explain why some people burn their head to the point of losing skin, as they are creating sulfuric acid.

    I'm trying not to dismiss (as i did earlier before i put my whole theory together), or validate MaCuj0, only explain it and help people decide if it's worthwhile. I no longer think it is, as there are products that are safer and more reliable (meaning more consistent in how you mix and use the ingredients)

    Fourth,in brief explanation, which i've posted in detail on two threads already, the disulfide bonds are the strong bonds between the cysteine amino acids that are the main structural component of the cortex of the hair. The cortex is where THC metabolites and other molecules such as hair pigments are contained, in a fibrous matrix of amino acids, these acids being bound by disulfide bonds, and trapping the unbound molecules (pigments, metabolites, etc) within. By breaking these bonds you allow the cleansers to get into the cortex matrix, and also (hopefully) allow these rather large molecules of TCH metabolites to leave the matrix.

    I've also conjectured that if you don't create a "hole" for the metabolites to leave through, than your "solvent" may work, but if the molecule can't get out, once the solvent is gone (washed out, evaporated, etc) the molecule remains trapped and no cleaning has been done.

    The web-site i've directed to explains how most of this is put together, and how breaking the disulfide bonds is the mechanism of allowing the reshaping of hair to do a "permanent". And thereby opening up the "holes" i've mentioned. THOUGH yes, there is no mention of whether these pores are large enough to release TCH metabolites, BUT I've also supported the effectiveness of that by citing a known (e.g., mentioned by others in these forums) scientific paper stating how it is POSSIBLE, as shown through SOME testing, that a perm or bleaching treatment can reduce TCH metabolites by as much as 30%.

    I have not seen ingredients or mechnics of "how it works" posted on any of the detox procuct web-sites, and they are clearly endorsing their own products.

    Finally
    - i've relied on your postings as a source of objective and useful information. I've found your comments to generally be thoughtful and prudent. I've spent a week of solid effort trying to help everyone, and your accusations and dismissive comments, along with the obvious failure to research my other postings, are dissapointing. Remove me from the Thread if you like, block any and all of my other comments if you like, i won't take it personally. This is a relatively anonymous forum and i'm only trying to add my own knowledge and effort to our cause.

    I completely understand if i've proposed my final opinion to concretely, but it sure is the way the MaCuj0 posting was started, and it spread like wildfire without ANY explanation, other than the "my friend works in a forensics lab" validation

    As i've stated for interest at the end of each of my postings, i have used Aloe Rid Clarifying Treatment (hey you said you've used it too, are you "working for Nexxus???" I would guess you are not)., I have done two Ogilve home perms (without trying to reshape my hair - i use the perm, then shampoo with Aloe Rid, then use the neutralizer that restores the disulfide bonds).

    I have felt you are an excellent moderator. But i feel you dropped the ball on this - not by your suspicion of this particular post, but by a lack of looking at the website i posted, and also by not checking my other posts.

    in any case, good luck to all, and no i definitely DO NOT have all the answers, just doing my best to shed light onto the guesswork and concerns.
  5. Wicked_56711

    Wicked_56711 New Member

    Ok well I see that you said that bleaching and perming your hair can reduce the THH metobalites by like 30 percent. I have recently had my hair bleached professionally til it was pretty much white (took 3 bleaches total) and I was just wondering if you think that it could have reduced the THC level in my hair?
  6. Truth=Freedom

    Truth=Freedom New Member

    it is POSSIBLE and there is good reason to think so

    Hi Wicked -

    yes i do think (personally) that is very likely to have removed at least a protion of the THC metabolites - not neceassarily by destroying them, but rather by allowing them to be washed out of the hair. Bleach is a strong oxidizer and therefore can also destroy organic molecules like the THC metabolite, but either way "the job is done"

    please don't interpret what i wrote as it "does remove 30%" - i was only trying to cite a source that claimed it "may remove up to 30%" - that's a big difference in possibilities.

    i'm going to be a little less direct in my views, there are many variables in all of this, and my passion for getting my point across can make my statements seem like "Truth" rather than educated opinion, that has been brought to my attention recently. perhaps "truth=freedom", but also "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!"

    good luck passing your test - i believe you used the strongest method available.
  7. Wicked_56711

    Wicked_56711 New Member

    Well I understand what you said means that it may only remove up to 30 percent and that it doesnt mean that it is goin to every time. I figure since I bleached it 3 different times, each time allowing the bleach to set for 30min to 1 hour that I probably have removed as much as possible by using the bleaching method. I believe this because the last time I bleached it it didnt get much lighter then the time before so I believe that I have removed as much pigment as possible and hope the same is true for the THC metobolites. If you want to read more about my situation I have a thread in this same section. Thanks again.
  8. Secs

    Secs New Member

    What I got out of Truth=Freedom's last post is that:

    It has been reported that perming MAY reduce THC Metabolites by UP TO 30%.

    I read that the same way as:

    It has been reported that there MAY be WMD in Irac (Edit: Iraq, pardon me).

    Simply speculation.

    Edit:
    Not a criticism, actually an agreement.
  9. Wicked_56711

    Wicked_56711 New Member

    If your goin to criticize someone elses post please atleast be able to spell Iraq correctly.
  10. teufelfisch

    teufelfisch Seasoned Activist

    To Truch=Freedom:
    And to that, I raise my cup. I sincerely Thank you for questioning what's on these boards. Too many people take the information they find on the internet at face value.

    First of all, I'm sorry that I thought you were a spammer. They are a real concern on these boards, so we have to be careful. Upon review of your posts and your PM, I realize now that I made a mistake, and that you are a genuine poster.

    The site you posted, while it may be complete and explain the whole process in great detail, it relies to heavily on text, a rather inefficient way to explain the process. You can't expect people (even moderators) to read that much text at once, so you need lots of graphics. There are many websites out there that explain perms, in a much more efficient manner, with lots of graphics (albeit less completely). That is one reason why I thought you were a spammer. What can I say, I like pictures.

    You're right that I don't have any scientific evidence to back up my claim (ouch), but I challenge you to find another ingredient that would have the same function as propylene glycol. Previous claims stated that EDTA removed cannabis metabolites from hair -- a claim that had absolutely no scientific backing.

    Sorry, but your experiment will not work, because sulfuric acid is not formed. Check out the chemical structure of cysteine. The curls in hair are formed by cysteine-cysteine bonds, and perms / MaCujo / etc break these bonds but they do not remove the sulfur from the cysteine. The disulfide bonds are re-formed at the end of the process. The reaction potential for oxidizing two sulfur atoms to that degree would be very hard to overcome. It would be even less likely that once the sulfur atoms are oxidized to form sulfuric acid, that they would reduce to bind with the cysteine base once again.

    I agree with you 100% on this, and your efforts to determine what's best should be lauded.

    This is a valid hypothesis.

    I just wanted to make sure that you weren't a spammer. Just doing my job. :p

    There's a curious phenomenon that happens on the interweb. People will post things that they think are true, without any evidence, and other people think it's 100% teh true. I don't think I've ever actively supported the MaCuj0 method, but at the same time I don't think I've ever dismissed it as bunk. I simply don't have enough information. However, what you've posted has given me a lot more stuff to think about!!!!

    I've never used Aloe Rid, and I have never claimed that I have used it. If I've implied that it works, it's based on what I know about propylene glycol.
  11. teufelfisch

    teufelfisch Seasoned Activist

    Don't let the passive language trip you up. It's not "simply speculation," it's more like "well, it worked for this set of people, but can the experiment be repeated? And will it give 30% for the next set of people?"
  12. teufelfisch

    teufelfisch Seasoned Activist

  13. Plainsman1963

    Plainsman1963 New Member

    I believe I owe the OP an apology as well. I do not know if the moderator was acting upon my report post concerning this being spam and if he did, I bear some responsibility for the snafu as well.

    I didn't research the link well enough obviously and I was wrong. For that, I apologize.

    I guess I like pictures too. :p
  14. Truth=Freedom

    Truth=Freedom New Member

    thanks for your reply

    thanks -

    i really appreciate your reply, and i know i come on a bit strong in mine, i was definitely frustrated, but mostly by my own upcoming test, and that i have worked very hard to do that research. thanks for not biting my head off.

    I can understand your comment about pictures being easier to follow than the text - it's really hard to find sites that simplify this subject for the "working man"

    your discussion of the disulfide bonds and why my sulfuric acid formation theory is not valid was great - and now i won't have to do that experiment, i don't have much hair available right now anyway! that was way more than i would have known on my own, but i'm glad i could follow it!

    AS FOR ME - i just took my test and made a HUGE mistake. After treating my hair for a week, cutting it to 3/4", etc. The technician insisted that it was too short and that i remove body hair. I had trimmed my body hair to about 1/2"-1" (it's hard to get it all even since it doesn't all stand up), but did not treat it at all. She insisted that if she sent my head hair they'd return the sample as insufficient material......bummer!!!! I SHOULD HAVE treated my armpit hair, as i'd then have offered a 1/2" sample of treated hair!!!! How's that for "test consistency"??? ridiculous - but i'm pretty annoyed at myself.

    The only thing that will pass me now is: i've abstained for the last eight on nine weeks (or seven of eight, 'cause the first week of abstinence was new "dirty" hair growth) - and my chest hair is extremely fine, hopefully a thin cortex that doesn't hold as much "stuff in it" - the lesson HAVE A PLAN"B"!
  15. Truth=Freedom

    Truth=Freedom New Member

    oh yeah - apology and a challenge

    teufelfisch -

    i said that i'd apologize if i misstated your scientific validation of Aloe Rid (and PG), and didn't in my recent post - and i do apologize. i suppose worse than just believing what we read on these posts is only getting what was said half right and then passing it along.

    second, now that i've exhausted my first stage of research (as far as i can take it) about hair and perms, i'll take you up on your "PG" challenge. I can only speculate right now that since it's used as a carrier in natural oils essences, and as a moisturizer in shampoos, that it is slippery and can get into tight places and carry off oil-soluble molecules (like our friendly THC metabolit) - but that's all speculation - i'll see what else i can figure out.

    as for the several comments about "it MAY in some cases remove...." being likened to WMD in Iraq, well i'm learning to back away from making absolute statements unless i have absolute knowledge. Wisdom is knowing when to admit that you don't know.

    However, as "intellegence" and inspection clearly showed little or no evidence of WMD in Iraq from the very beginning, this study shows there is likely evidence that some cleaning is being accomplished.....hey i'm as slippery as Propylene Glycol!
  16. 1tokeovertheline

    1tokeovertheline New Member

    That sucks your hair being to short and not treating your body hair. Not to add insult to injury,but you should have been reading the post here and experimented after your hair test. There are MANY post cautioning about cutting your head hair to short, so they will take from the head. Also post of treating chest,pubic and underarm hair and shaving the rest. Basically forcing them to take the hair from where YOU want them to. Like you said a good lesson learned. Hopefully not a very life changing or expensive one.
    Good Luck and post your results
  17. 3green69

    3green69 New Member

    Just a little more info on PG and Tide

    I too have been doing some research over the past few months and appreciate the information provided on this site. As background info, let me say that I failed a hair test in late December and it has bugged me. I bought a commercial product at a local head shop, despite my gut instinct that a perm or bleaching would have altered the structure of the hair and allowed for better metabolite removal. I now find it funny what we will do and what we will believe when faced with a stressful situation.

    With that, I have found that the MSDS for Tide indicates that one of it's major ingredients is ethanol. Extra Strength Denorex contains 3% Salicylic acid. And, many salon perms contain Ammonia and Propylene Glycol.

    I tried a little experiment last night with apple cider vinegar (didn't wash it out) and the Denorex. There was no burn. After washing that all out, I tried a wash with Tide, followed by Denorex, followed by Aloe Rid clarifying treatment (not the shampoo). Today, I talked to my local hairstylist, and she says that the failure to apply neutralizer when perming will just cause the loss of the curl you are trying to achieve.

    Now I have no way of knowing what will work 100% of the time, but it I hope that this info can add to our knowledge pool.
  18. 1tokeovertheline

    1tokeovertheline New Member

    The very unpopular not smoking dope, is 100% :D

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